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This is the most important comment I have heard this week — Poland’s Prime Minister Donald Tusk:

“500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians […] Europe, if there is something we lack today, it is not economic or demographic power, but the belief that we are truly a global force.”

I think Tusk hits the bullseye here. Those 140 million Russians are already fully occupied by fighting Ukraine, and our leaders act like we are Liechtenstein.

2 Personen haben dies geteilt

JimmyB (he/him)
but we are all so comfortable in Europe and we don’t want to upset our lives so in a way we are Lichtenstein
ItsDoctorNotMrs
Also, lingering trauma from EW II, perhaps, where Ameticam troops did swoop in and rescue many.

If Europeans are behaving like trauma victims with unresolved fear, might be helpful to help them re-learn to fight back.
JimmyB (he/him)
I think the trauma of the US joining WW2 so late and only when Pearl Harbour forced their hand (as opposed to joining the fight against fascism on principle) - together with the permanent jingoism of the simplistic ‘we saved your ass’ line makes many in Europe, with any sense of history, feel deeply sceptical about US involvement. It’s deeply disrespectful to those who did fight in WW2 as well - US and others.

Europe needs to wake up now
Sewer Pirouette
WW2 was fought and won by the USSR.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

SamuelJohnson
WW2 was NOT fought and won by the USSR. It was fought and won with American industry *first and foremost* and with Soviet blood (with significant resources supplied by the US). By far the most effective Soviets were Ukrainians.
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Jackie 🌹
WW2 was won with Soviet soldiers, American industry, and British intelligence. (And also Congolese uranium, but nobody cares about Africa for some reason)
SamuelJohnson
British intelligence did not "win the war". At best it shortened the war in Europe. It also relied heavily on work done by Polish mathematicians and cryptographers before the war. Significant, yes. Decisive, hardly.
cliffordheath
you're talking about cryptology. Radar was equally or more important, especially in the earlier stages of the war. Entirely British inventions drove it
SamuelJohnson
The most decisive factors were US industry and Soviet manpower. Hitler's stupidity arguably 3rd.
Grovewest
WW2 was three quarters of a century ago. Europe is now united but in a way Hitler or Stalin never imagined. As the US continues to tear itself apart internally Europe is coalescing into a democratic stronghold.
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Raff Karva
I always have a laugh reading people argue about “who won ww2.”

https://theconversation.com/who-won-the-war-we-did-says-everyone-121767

Who won the war? We did, says everyone

New research suggests people from Germany, Russia, the UK and US all think their own country was the most important in World War II.
The Conversation

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

SamuelJohnson
Ggod article, but it's not a laughing matter. We see now, again, the consequences of the conceits national exceptionalism.

When I lived in the US I encountered "We should just nuke'em" attitudes (when people were asked about what the US should do about Poland during Solidarity period).

Why?

Trumpian ignorance and a Putinesque feeling of impunity & superiority. Evident in Brexiters too.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

JimmyB (he/him)
There is something deeply dystopian about folks who weren't born, taking some nationalistic credit for winning a war which they had nothing to do with, and to which the contribution of the forebears is controversial...

@RaffKarva @Grovewest @cliffordheath @burnoutqueen @Wouter_Pieterse @randahl @northernlights
@ItsDoctorNotMrs @Randahl Fink @Jackie 🌹 @Grovewest @Raff Karva @Sewer Pirouette @cliffordheath
SamuelJohnson
The bigger issue, surely, is the delusions of impunity by citizens of historic imperial powers informed by misunderstanding of the past.

Citizens of smaller countries that have been subjected to domination by their larger neighbours generally don't suffer these.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

JimmyB (he/him)
Yes: we have a real issue with this stupidity.

To wildly misquote someone or other...

British patriotism is the art of believing that because you were born in Peckham, you are superior to Mozart.

We get fed this BS in our tabloids day after day. Murdoch and Lord Rothermere are guily of a lot here.

But overly long historic memories is not just the preserve of the colonialists.

@RaffKarva @Grovewest @cliffordheath @burnoutqueen @Wouter_Pieterse @randahl @northernlights
@ItsDoctorNotMrs @Randahl Fink @Jackie 🌹 @Grovewest @Raff Karva @Sewer Pirouette @cliffordheath
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crazyeddie
Yeah, we like to think we stood up and fought for the world against fascism but the truth is that Americans did NOT want to be involved in yet another European conflict and wouldn't support Roosevelt's desire to join the fight. He had to stick to humanitarian aid only (presidents hadn't yet decided they could just wage war without declaring it).

We also didn't give any fucks about Jews. We told them to fuck off and go back to Germany. I hope we didn't know.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

JimmyB (he/him)
yeah - there is so much ignorance - in Europe and the US about what actually happened leading up to and during WW2. But a lot of pub bores get off on the ‘we saved your ass’ line (the Brits about the French too of course) when a) clearly that’s simplistic and b) the individuals pushing this line typically couldn’t save a squirrel
crazyeddie
We did end up being pretty darn important once we finally did join in. I think our pride there is warranted and, until we squandered it, the appreciation and camaraderie our countries developed was really great and the US played a huge part in it.

But what we're asking for now is so beneath the pale I don't think that matters anymore. It's us who have squandered the blood we sacrificed.
JimmyB (he/him)
“We did end up being pretty darn important once we finally did join in”

Sure. But that’s not really my point. In fact it’s sort of the counter point.

“I think our pride there is warranted”

I think that pride allows USians to not face who they really were - and are. I can say this coz it’s so true of us Brits too. Anyway. Here we are… more fascists to fight incl, again, a load of home grown ones

@northernlights @randahl
@ItsDoctorNotMrs @Randahl Fink
crazyeddie
A lot of history is cut out of public schools in the US. We get the happy happy glad glad version that paints us as heroes of Democracy. Anything else is gutted out or glossed over. And yeah, we don't know ourselves at all and will fight very hard to keep from learning.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

Truls
I think what we are lacking is a sense of unity.

There is still way too much nationalism and protection in the heads of most Europeans and most European politicians.

Especially the far right-idiots fail to understand that we need a strong united Europe not a bunch of little countries fighting each other. Now more than ever.

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

CaliCarol
Send Europe's equivalent of Seal Team Six to snatch Putin and deliver him to the The Hague.

A fantasy of course but that would solve everyone's problems, wouldn't it?
TheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖
Like every other dictator he's not alone. Eliminate him but others will be ready to take his place. Like every dictator there is always a bunch of contenders. Usually they stay put until the dictator become weak and then they take his place.
I would be careful to scream victory ... and don't forget plutonium tea and weak windows ...

JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt

JimmyB (he/him)
I’ve got a Serb mate who warns about the dream of assassination - coz the KGB is Hydra. I think he is wrong tho: there is something about the individuals - be it Trump, Putin or any of the other successful totalitarians which means that the individual does matter and replacements are pretty unlikely to be as successful.

Trying to think of case studies
prokyonid
Your Serb friend should be very aware of what happened to Yugoslavia once Tito died. There are plenty of contenders and the immediate aftermath will not be pleasant but it is rare (North Korea) that a national cult of personality can be wholly subsumed by another once it is decapitated - that type of authority is not big on the transfer of power.
JimmyB (he/him)
well the gap between Tito and Milosevic was pretty long. That perhaps is the point though: while the individual may have gone, they leave a gap which can in future be filled by another with that character who gains power through fascist lies. And that hole can remain open for a long time.

The Balkan folks have insanely long memories too so this is particularly true for them
Tocarra
Don't let anyone tell you that #UkraineWar started on 24 February 2022!

1. Illegal #nazi #coup in Kiev: February 2014
2. Peaceful protesters burnt alive in #Odessa: 2 May 2014
3. Military attack in #Mariupol: 9 May 2014
4. Airstrike in #Lugansk resulting many killed women: 2 June 2014
5. Shelling of #Gorlovka resulting many killed women and children: 27 July 2014
6. Ukrainian UAV intentionally killed 4 yo boy in #Donbas: 3 April 2021

#nazi #Coup #UkraineWar #Odessa #Mariupol #donbas #lugansk #gorlovka
JimmyB (he/him)
No war ever started on a particular date: context is everything. And yes - there were serious provocations. And US screwing in their election in 2014 was only matched by the Russians trying and failing to be as successful at the same game.

But your list could have been published by Putin. And the cartoon - disgusting Kremlin propaganda.

@prokyonid @thefwguy @jawarajabbi @randahl
@CaliCarol @Randahl Fink @TheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖 @prokyonid
TheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖
When I say "replacement" I don't mean that the next will be identical or that will carry the "program" designed by the first one, very probably he'll reshape/change a lot of things (usually for the worse) to match his particular mental insanity.
Being a dictator is the stupidest way to have a life, always watching behind to be sure don't be stabbed and "replaced" or just killed by the population.
Stupid stupid men.
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