The REALITY IS the necessary materials to maintain that shiny infrastructure wont be available after a not so long on the evolutionary scale period of time

if the civilization persists then we will have an abundance of material available to us in space.

There is a fallacy here and it is not very communist like.
The standard of living of all people on earth to rise to relatively healthy level (not exactly the use abuse and discard of the "west" but healthier nutrition than 90% is having, healthy living conditions, safe and healthy working conditions) we are facing with probably 200% rise in industrialization. The raw materials' and earth resources to achieve this are by far not there, they appear to be there because only 20% is enjoying the results of current industrialization, the rest work to produce them.

Who decides whether the improvement of std.living (material conditions) is secondary to man's exploration of space for the specific reason of bringing materials from space to earth? It is a metaphysical dream or poet's dreams that such thing may happen.

An authoritarian idealist/religious dreamer will enforce sacrifices on others (not the ruling elite) to make the ideal reality. So not only non-communist thinking but I'd say anti-communist thinking.

The current economical system, even this of China and Russia is based on an artificial bubble of global virtual banking. Governments place the public into deep long term debt, borrowing from the future, to subsidize economic elites today. This debt has reached and passed sustainability, sp they are borrowing from a planet that is lifeless and a desert. If this debt as current "value" can't be repaid then this wealth is driving extinction, and every day faster and faster, nearer and nearer.

Social, environmental, psychological conditions of the population are part of "material conditions", it is not just food and shelter. I'd say we have reached an all time low, where we are in the verge of either driving an earth destroying global war of west and the rest of the world, or an instant melt-down of the economic bubble system. Either are a massive population reduction option.

The only people who successfully left capitalism and are doing well are the zapatista communities who have enjoyed true communism/communalism for the past 31 years, despite of the war the Mexican and US government have been engaged in against them.
The fact that vanguard marxist/leninists refuse to deal, explain, acknowledge this fact is because it is very much against Marxist elites, not all Marxists, and especially not all dialectical materialists.

The only thing we can all agree on is this hymn
https://youtu.be/3bZzM4s0Hgs?si=n9Pk0dTpY8LQ8Ns8

@Yogthos @Heretical_i

"Who decides whether the improvement of std.living (material conditions) is secondary to man's exploration of space for the specific reason of bringing materials from space to earth?"

The technocrats decide, no matter the sociopolitical system. We DO NOT NEED TO 'mine asteroids'. We need FOOD SHELTER etc.

Your politicians ALL BE LIKE Arms race peace race space race "At the same time, our people grumbled for more nylons and washing machines"
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5cf9882c-b08f-411b-8539-5b559a9b7469 Fuck COMPETITION

A year or so ago I read a new material for solar panels was developed bringing them THEORETICALLY to 40% efficient. Energy expended creating that material, described as an alloy, unknown. That's another issue. True costing the overall energy used to create these technological bandaids for a planet's citizens seemingly addicted to oil and the consumer/commuter societies literal!y ENFORCED on them, by people making money on that enforcement. China IS NOT an exception to the latter.

9 of 10 most powerful electric generators in world are just dams, including several in China. There is no nuclear plant. China has thousands of dam all around the country, with a lot around Changjiang, where lot of huge rains was a big problem for population with floods every years. Beside dams, China has a lot of very efficient and huge wind turbine farms, photovoltaic farms and a very good and efficient electric network. The Europe do the same. There is not so much gaz/oil powerplants In this two areas. Still lot of coil sadly in Germany and China, but tend to reduce with time. Nuclear plants are near (but not too much at the same time) of large cities that consume lot of energy. Depend fresh enough waters of rivers or sea.

Someone pointed out that mountaintops covered in solar panels, as seen in China, don't allow the natural absorption of water by the vegetation below and cause flooding as rivers of rain slide down the panels and get dumped en masse at intervals created by gaps in the panel's individual installation sites.

Don't know where your information come from. I never seen photovoltaic solar panels at mountaintops, and traveled all around China, they are mainly in desert, and on roof top, beside caloric solar panel (for hot water), as said before. There are lot of little sized photovoltaic panels in top of streetlights/roadlights too, with sometimes a mix of wind-turbine+photovoltaic panel.

Mountaintops have windturbine instead, as in most Portugal's mountaintops.

As said previously too, main flood of rivers are in south of central China, and it's long time problem. Building lot of dams, reduced floods a lot in this area, and provide huge electric power.

Sadly whole planet in general have more and more floods in moutains valley, but that's not related to any kind of solar panels at all.

state capital is shared capital, private capital at the same amount, is just something that disappear from everyone money system, and rarely come back (because billionnaires just keep money to keep money, and use only a little part)

CC: @yogthos@social.marxist.network

exactly, with state owned industry the work that's done has social value, while the purpose of work in private industry is to create wealth for the owners

But what if the owners in a society with state owned industries still desire things other people elsewhere are raped of to create @yogthos? INTERNATIONALIST socialists would frown on that. Russia and China give Lip Service to internationalist socialism. China, at least, is busying itself with selling its often unwilling citizens a consumerist 'western' lifestyle and it DOES have a cost on smaller nations. Aamof I just saw a piece about Chinese sweatshops making products for Shein... @Popolon

but what if we start engaging with the real world instead of making up straw man argument,s what then?

@yogthos. 'socialism' SHOULD NOT REQUIRE mimicry of other nation's miscarriages. I think its antithetical to socialism to feel one is in a Race... Because it's really a race to the bottom. China and Russia see themselves in COMPETITION with western capitalists, and when you play in that mud, you get dirty too. There is no reason they couldnt simply stop dealing with the US EXCEPT FOR THE FACT it would affect their CAPITAL interest in THEIR economy. It wouldn't collapse you know
@Popolon

I think you're just doing a lot of projection and yelling at me here, thing is that this argument is pointless because you're convinced of what you believe and based on the information you consume, and it's completely opposite of what I see. There is no way we can convince each other of anything. However, reality will assert itself eventually and we'll see whose beliefs were more closely aligned with it.

I believe in equality of wealth across all 'borders' that should not exist and have outlived any usefulness to HUMANITY that arrangement MIGHT have had. Thats NOT a strawman argument and is NOT BASED on 'information I consume'. A consumerist Chinese or Russian society is the antithesis of socialist ethics. Russia is not even as much an offender as China. Mao rolls over in his grave. There's still hope for Russia. @yogthos @Popolon

that's just individual action and it's no more meaningful than using paper straws. Individual action cannot solve our problems. What I'm talking about is imagining society being structured in a different way.

You LIVE Revolution, with an analysis, or you have empty words, hypocrisy, and a cult following a 'leader'. What some MARXIST said in the 1960s about having to be an 'absolute heretic' to have any effect. You WALK AWAY from the dominant society and build your own better one... "singly or in groups" @yogthos The guns and insurrection thingie is IN DEFENSE of that Revolution created. That was the part the Hippies forgot

In Roszak's Making of a counterculture. Too busy to get the pullquote atm.

seems like you're talking about yourself there. Anarchists have lots of empty words and vitrol with nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, China continues to improve lives of billions and build socialism.

Im living the dream @yogthos in the belly of the beast. My whole life has been dedicated to volunteering and mutual aid and I'm sorry your dogma got run over so you resorted to ad homs and denigration.

Ps. "Borders" are the problem, b/c in today's world theyre literally artificial creations. It's ez 2C what happens when they 'undo'. EX-Yugoslavia/EthnicCleansing as people return to land that was birthright and other people have been placed there by economic and other socially engineeed factors.

seems like it's your dogma that got run over given that you're the one who started getting abrasive and shitting on what an actual existing socialist state is accomplishing.

Anarchists dedicate their whole lives to finding ways to cope within the horrific capitalist system, but continue to fight with people who suggest meaningful ways of achieving systemic change.

Using purity tests to attack existing socialist projects is one prominent example of that.

That's not all Ive done guy. You need a laundry list back to when I waz a 14 year old? Really? It also depends on what you mean by 'systemic changes' because that System IS working AS DESIGNED, and CANNOT BE changed. It will COLLAPSE ... Self-Destruct at the hands of the powers that rule , rather than allow change. That global system is CAPITALIST atm, and you're speaking for changing it, not OVERTHROWING it. It is what it is. Destructive. No matter the 'national boundaries'.

I didn't accuse you of sealioning but you're making a lot of assumptions about the direction my analysis leads, without any historical cites. I'll let Uncle Ho speak for me here. Theory IS NOT the driving force... Patriotism... You know, to community first, then outward, is.

Ho Chi Minh with East German sailors in 1957, Stralsund Harbor Germany.

I don't think we have any disagreement on that. Nowhere have I argued against organizing communities and building grassroots power.

What I'm saying is that solidarity with existing socialist states is also important. Even if they don't pass your purity tests. Whatever you may think of China, it provides direct support for socialist projects around the globe. China is the primary reason Latin America is currently shaking off US influence.