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A significant factor in the effectiveness of Western propaganda against China lies in the psychological tendency for people to accept their circumstances more readily if they believe that the situation everywhere else is worse. Even merely considering the possibility that China might excel in a certain aspect opens the door to questioning the superiority of the Western system.
And China's propaganda targeting its citizens is based on bastardized CONSUMER CAPITALISM and a bunch of shiny shit that will dilapidate just as quickly as the west's did. But the government officials who are SELLING THAT NOW, will be long dead and not available for lynching by the time that dilapidation occurs. The maintaining of that SHINY NEW infrastructure in the long run will cost INFINITELY MORE than it's creation and tank the Chinese economy fershure.
western anarchists aggressively misunderstanding China bores me
I understand perfectly. Psychopaths rose to the top and NATIONALISTIC CHAUVINISM is ALL they REALLY have to offer. @yogthos. 100 years. Maximum. Peak oil from ME is calculated at 2040 by Iran. That's the ONLY INEXPENSIVE TO PROCESS OIL. Natural Gas typically follows 50 years later. 90 years until energy panic. Expect an earth destroying war in the Caspian Basin for it.
it's obvious that you have no intention of engaging with reality or actually understanding China, you're basically providing a concrete example of what I'm talking about in my original comment.

You've convinced yourself that China is just as bad as the west, and this helps you cope. It's kind of sad really.
The REALITY IS the necessary materials to maintain that shiny infrastructure wont be available after a not so long on the evolutionary scale period of time
if the civilization persists then we will have an abundance of material available to us in space.
There is a fallacy here and it is not very communist like.
The standard of living of all people on earth to rise to relatively healthy level (not exactly the use abuse and discard of the "west" but healthier nutrition than 90% is having, healthy living conditions, safe and healthy working conditions) we are facing with probably 200% rise in industrialization. The raw materials' and earth resources to achieve this are by far not there, they appear to be there because only 20% is enjoying the results of current industrialization, the rest work to produce them.

Who decides whether the improvement of std.living (material conditions) is secondary to man's exploration of space for the specific reason of bringing materials from space to earth? It is a metaphysical dream or poet's dreams that such thing may happen.

An authoritarian idealist/religious dreamer will enforce sacrifices on others (not the ruling elite) to make the ideal reality. So not only non-communist thinking but I'd say anti-communist thinking.

The current economical system, even this of China and Russia is based on an artificial bubble of global virtual banking. Governments place the public into deep long term debt, borrowing from the future, to subsidize economic elites today. This debt has reached and passed sustainability, sp they are borrowing from a planet that is lifeless and a desert. If this debt as current "value" can't be repaid then this wealth is driving extinction, and every day faster and faster, nearer and nearer.

Social, environmental, psychological conditions of the population are part of "material conditions", it is not just food and shelter. I'd say we have reached an all time low, where we are in the verge of either driving an earth destroying global war of west and the rest of the world, or an instant melt-down of the economic bubble system. Either are a massive population reduction option.

The only people who successfully left capitalism and are doing well are the zapatista communities who have enjoyed true communism/communalism for the past 31 years, despite of the war the Mexican and US government have been engaged in against them.
The fact that vanguard marxist/leninists refuse to deal, explain, acknowledge this fact is because it is very much against Marxist elites, not all Marxists, and especially not all dialectical materialists.

The only thing we can all agree on is this hymn
https://youtu.be/3bZzM4s0Hgs?si=n9Pk0dTpY8LQ8Ns8

@Yogthos @Heretical_i
"Who decides whether the improvement of std.living (material conditions) is secondary to man's exploration of space for the specific reason of bringing materials from space to earth?"

The technocrats decide, no matter the sociopolitical system. We DO NOT NEED TO 'mine asteroids'. We need FOOD SHELTER etc.

Your politicians ALL BE LIKE Arms race peace race space race "At the same time, our people grumbled for more nylons and washing machines"
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5cf9882c-b08f-411b-8539-5b559a9b7469 Fuck COMPETITION
But need for oil reduce with time. More and more things depend on electricity. If oil is very efficient, oil in car due to several factors is less efficient than oil, due to the means to get it and transport it. China has developed the planet widest electric railway network.

If today batteries are unacceptably heavy for using large number of huge cars for transportation, it's more interesting for train and light cities cars, bus and light vehicles. Most China scooters are electrical since about 15 years now. The production of renewable electric energy is just insane in China, and will progressively, as in Europe, replace any current oil based things, with more efficiency.

In the area of batteries China that make 80% of planet ones, dirty and rare elements are gradually replaced by more clean and easily available ones.

The same way their orbital station, as most artificial satellites use plasma, where the ISS, based on old Soviet Mir station, use more heavy combustibles. Most of rockets that reach ISS are still Soyuz and Progress from soviet era too, still launched in Kazakhstan's base Baikonuur.

There are lot of cooperation between Europe and China, to make progress, even if they are both partially blocked by USA stupide stance. Chinese cars manufacturers will start to build factories in Europe, where they was closed by European and American industrials. Progress in science of both part is exchanged. In both case, there is a hard work to make cities greener. They are not like US vision of pure concrete cities without trees. Walking in China large cities is very calm with their large green parks, trees rows and reduced noise due to a large electrical vehicle part. As soon a motorbike go through a street in Paris, nobody can hear friend speaking, or birds in trees. They are gradually pushed out of the cities.

At the opposite, I believe the idea to recover a rocket as Musk do (and few Chinese now also do) is totally stupid, it's more a ad. show for "technological superiority" than a real advantage. Launching things in space is a fight between weight (of used charge and energy charge). adding the charge to get back the rocket make the rocket a lot heavier, and so less efficient. There is few chance, that the part or the rocket that come back will be used, after the damage of a fly.

CC: @yogthos@social.marxist.network
Oil/gas fed powerplants are at best 30% efficient, aside from the CO2/Microparticulate issues involved. 70% of the energy is wasted. That's why Lectric Cars are an environmental nightmare. Nuclear power approaches 40%, but leaves a radioactive mess at decommissioning, other hazards. During hurricane katrina the spent fuel rods at nuclear plants all along the Gulf coast were stored in glorified swimming pools w tin sheds overhead. Guess what happened to the water @Popolon 1/2
A year or so ago I read a new material for solar panels was developed bringing them THEORETICALLY to 40% efficient. Energy expended creating that material, described as an alloy, unknown. That's another issue. True costing the overall energy used to create these technological bandaids for a planet's citizens seemingly addicted to oil and the consumer/commuter societies literal!y ENFORCED on them, by people making money on that enforcement. China IS NOT an exception to the latter.
9 of 10 most powerful electric generators in world are just dams, including several in China. There is no nuclear plant. China has thousands of dam all around the country, with a lot around Changjiang, where lot of huge rains was a big problem for population with floods every years. Beside dams, China has a lot of very efficient and huge wind turbine farms, photovoltaic farms and a very good and efficient electric network. The Europe do the same. There is not so much gaz/oil powerplants In this two areas. Still lot of coil sadly in Germany and China, but tend to reduce with time. Nuclear plants are near (but not too much at the same time) of large cities that consume lot of energy. Depend fresh enough waters of rivers or sea.
Someone pointed out that mountaintops covered in solar panels, as seen in China, don't allow the natural absorption of water by the vegetation below and cause flooding as rivers of rain slide down the panels and get dumped en masse at intervals created by gaps in the panel's individual installation sites.
Don't know where your information come from. I never seen photovoltaic solar panels at mountaintops, and traveled all around China, they are mainly in desert, and on roof top, beside caloric solar panel (for hot water), as said before. There are lot of little sized photovoltaic panels in top of streetlights/roadlights too, with sometimes a mix of wind-turbine+photovoltaic panel.

Mountaintops have windturbine instead, as in most Portugal's mountaintops.

As said previously too, main flood of rivers are in south of central China, and it's long time problem. Building lot of dams, reduced floods a lot in this area, and provide huge electric power.

Sadly whole planet in general have more and more floods in moutains valley, but that's not related to any kind of solar panels at all.
Proud of it too @Popolon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVQxp9ekPe ps.Im NOT your research assistant
keep rationalizing earth destruction to save your shitty carculture consumercrap lifestyle. You got NOTHING but technocratic PIPEDREAMS.
Chavinism bores me.

China has the last vestiges of the industrial revolution because it makes and sells consumer products to consumer societies whose economies will collapse in short order and take IT'S economy with them. End of oil coming soon and NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE that doesnt destroy the planet too, in any foreseeable future. They'll REALLY REALLY WISH they never diverged from Mao's worldview.
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seems like the problem will solve itself when western economies collapse. For what it's worth, I too wish that China did not become a consumerist society.

I was very happy living in USSR without consumerism, but sadly many people were not and that system got overturned because people wanted to have shiny things westerners had.

China would've followed the same path as USSR had it not made compromises.
I was going to say Russia seems to have a saner economic model ... Slower growth and I can tell you when the affluent Chinese (albeit most likely taiwanese) kids show up at the local UC they act very much like the spoiled booshie american kids there. I haven't seen that behavior in the Russian emigres I meet.
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Taiwan's not really representative of the rest of China. Also worth noting that China has been moving away from relying on consumerism as the backbone for the economy. The role of private sector continues to decline.

https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2024/chinas-private-sector-has-lost-ground-state-sector-has-gained-share-among
Apropos. Just showed up on my fb tl. China IS stakeholder capitalism with the citizens as ostensible stakeholders

Do you mean that paying taxes are like holding state capital? This is a bit strange point of view to compare things that are only to get financial income, and developing schools, hospitals, gardens, electrical network, transportation and other essential services.

CC: @yogthos@social.marxist.network
Taxes ARE 'state capital' afaict. Whether the citizens have a REAL SAY in how that capital gets used is relevant here, but stakeholder capitalism would assume they do. The gist is that for someone somewhere else that kind of capitalism STILL rapes their extractive resources etc. Iow there's no such thing as kinder gentler capitalism
Wonder how those civilian stakeholders in China feel about this. Reminds me of that 60s TV series The Prisoner. https://www.facebook.com/XinhuaNewsAgency/videos/1238485893922120/ @Popolon @yogthos
Chinese rolly polly acab robot can chase and capture you.
The whole Prisoner series is on YouTube for free if I recall correctly. The overarching theme was you cant trust anyone. Patrick Mc gouhan must have sensed something about the brit secret service he DID NOT LIKE while doing Danger Man/Secret Agent. The studio refused to produce it so he did it with his own money ... It was a small weather balloon that chased you down if you tried to escape @Nimbius666 @Popolon @yogthos
Warning, there is a US remake of "The Prisoner", but it lost all interesting aspects of the original one, and is just totally stupid and uninteresting, couldn't look at it for more than 10 minutes. Looked several time the British series.

CC: @Nimbius666@comp.lain.la @yogthos@social.marxist.network
That has to be bad @Popolon @Nimbius666 @yogthos

See https://archive.org/details/the-prisoner All episodes. There are quite a few detailed analyses of it in the intertubz wild.
China is not stakeholder capitalism. Why do people find it so difficult to actually learn about China. It's not like information is difficult to find. There's this trend of aggressive ignorance within western left where people insist on mischaracterizing China as some form of capitalism and refuse to actually look at the evidence in front of them.
If the citizens arent the stakeholders then...
China isn't a business 😂
"The WORLD is a business, Mr. Beale!" You think the chinese economists don't get out their minmax calculators and figure... Seriously. China is IN business, and doing quite well at it too.
I get the impression that people in the west can't imagine that anything could be structurally different
My whole life is as structurally different from the average western industrial human as is possible. I havent owned a tin box with wheels for almost 30 years, by choice. Went from Class A tractor-trailer license to NO class voluntarily. Sick of it. Cars are a SOCIAL DISEASE ISOLATING US FROM EACH OTHER. I live outdoors 365 days a year (the climate here allows it, rarely going to freezing, but I'm well equipped). They call it Homelessness, but THAT is a State of Mind. @yogthos

You were saying?
that's just individual action and it's no more meaningful than using paper straws. Individual action cannot solve our problems. What I'm talking about is imagining society being structured in a different way.
You LIVE Revolution, with an analysis, or you have empty words, hypocrisy, and a cult following a 'leader'. What some MARXIST said in the 1960s about having to be an 'absolute heretic' to have any effect. You WALK AWAY from the dominant society and build your own better one... "singly or in groups" @yogthos The guns and insurrection thingie is IN DEFENSE of that Revolution created. That was the part the Hippies forgot

In Roszak's Making of a counterculture. Too busy to get the pullquote atm.
seems like you're talking about yourself there. Anarchists have lots of empty words and vitrol with nothing to show for it. Meanwhile, China continues to improve lives of billions and build socialism.
Im living the dream @yogthos in the belly of the beast. My whole life has been dedicated to volunteering and mutual aid and I'm sorry your dogma got run over so you resorted to ad homs and denigration.

Ps. "Borders" are the problem, b/c in today's world theyre literally artificial creations. It's ez 2C what happens when they 'undo'. EX-Yugoslavia/EthnicCleansing as people return to land that was birthright and other people have been placed there by economic and other socially engineeed factors.
seems like it's your dogma that got run over given that you're the one who started getting abrasive and shitting on what an actual existing socialist state is accomplishing.

Anarchists dedicate their whole lives to finding ways to cope within the horrific capitalist system, but continue to fight with people who suggest meaningful ways of achieving systemic change.

Using purity tests to attack existing socialist projects is one prominent example of that.
it's the whole capitalist realism thing talking
Here's some REALISM. The world is a business. That's current reality @yogthos
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the reality that China holds US bonds which allows them to do stuff like this? https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3285363/chinas-issuance-us-dollar-bonds-bolster-ties-saudi-arabia
Collaboration with capitalists🤣 Trade embaros and other bullshit are just red meat for both side's slaves to be indoctrinated with in their me-dee-unhs and affect otherwise possible social relationships with citizenry on both continents.

Speaking of slaves, when WILL Chinese companies be held accountable, like american companies should be, for offshoring their shitwork for the west to sweatshops in other nations @yogthos ?
the defining aspect of being an anarchist is shitting on people who are making tangible material improvements in the lives of the global majority while achieving absolutely nothing themselves. Absolute clown shit.

Heretical_i hat dies geteilt

Any comments from the peanut gallery to @yogthos's denigration of people who are ostensibly #communists, if they actually practice #Anarchism in their daily lives? #Anarchists
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Heretical_i hat dies geteilt

practising something on individual level is just being a liberal. Communism is fundamentally about collective action. Something an actual communist would understand.
Sure. Liberal. 🤣 I'm the liberal who gets in cops faces calls them nazis then explains exactly why they are publicly while exhorting folks to do the same when they're harassed. Sure. You misuse the term Liberal discussing my analysis and actions. I'm SETTING AN EXAMPLE FOR MY COMRADES, Dude. Leading, WITH A SOCIALIST ANALYSIS, AND WAY OF LIFE.

So what do YOU do besides code and pontificate about geopolitics @yogthos ?
what systemic change have your actions contributed to? Getting in cops faces might be satisfying for you on a personal level, and make you feel like you're doing something, but it doesn't change the direction of travel of the society as a whole.

Meanwhile, I'm not the one sealioning into your threads to pontificate.
That's not all Ive done guy. You need a laundry list back to when I waz a 14 year old? Really? It also depends on what you mean by 'systemic changes' because that System IS working AS DESIGNED, and CANNOT BE changed. It will COLLAPSE ... Self-Destruct at the hands of the powers that rule , rather than allow change. That global system is CAPITALIST atm, and you're speaking for changing it, not OVERTHROWING it. It is what it is. Destructive. No matter the 'national boundaries'.
I didn't accuse you of sealioning but you're making a lot of assumptions about the direction my analysis leads, without any historical cites. I'll let Uncle Ho speak for me here. Theory IS NOT the driving force... Patriotism... You know, to community first, then outward, is.

Ho Chi Minh with East German sailors in 1957, Stralsund Harbor Germany.


I don't think we have any disagreement on that. Nowhere have I argued against organizing communities and building grassroots power.

What I'm saying is that solidarity with existing socialist states is also important. Even if they don't pass your purity tests. Whatever you may think of China, it provides direct support for socialist projects around the globe. China is the primary reason Latin America is currently shaking off US influence.
western left could learn a lot from movements in Latin America to see how effective organizing at scale works

Heretical_i hat dies geteilt

This speaks to an industrial society issue. Namely that homogenous societies are the best candidates for Revolutionary social change. Identity and personality politics in industrial society's media prevents their citizens from finding common ground. That's why it's important to find common ground with your neighbors, then build networks of like minded people ...

An example just came to me from my FB feed. Welcome to the first Brit Rainbow Gathering 😎 https://www.newscientist.com/article/2461558-stonehenge-may-have-been-built-to-unify-people-of-ancient-britain/

sure it's what Marx and Engels talk about as well when they say that capitalist mode of production ends up forging the proletariat that ultimately takes up arms against capitalists.

Unfortunately, it turns out that people will accept incredible amounts of abuse before deciding that their conditions are unacceptable.
I agree with this entirely, and I know you can't just stop the trajectory of industrial societies, but I do ponder on that riddle, "If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?". I posit at some point some cohort said GO BACK! THIS WON'T WORK!.

I'm with them😎
I appreciate the sentiment, unfortunately capitalist ideology actively seeks to eradicate anything that's incompatible with it. As long is it remains the dominant force in the world, no alternative ways of development will be tolerated.

The only thing I find notable about BRICS is that it's not ideologically driven. If BRICS can succeed then there may be potential for different types of civilizations to emerge going forward.
In archeology, industry means a typical production industry in a specific society. We can speak about industrial revolution with coil powered steam machines, but most societies have an industry.

CC: @yogthos@social.marxist.network
FOR a specific society, and usually in it @Popolon. There's a difference regarding who decides what industry in play there. One that helps the society prosper, or one that lets some individuals in it prosper by enforcing industries that furtbet that goal on the society. Car Culture comes to mind immediately, and all the environmental AND SOCIO-PSYCHOLOGICAL mayhem it causes. @yogthos