I've had a lot of people ask how BlueSky compares to Mastodon and the Fediverse. I've tried to make the answer as simple and easy to understand as possible:
🦋 BlueSky is designed to give corporations and wealthy people full control of the network. All of its traffic has to flow through expensive-to-run corporate relays.
The Fediverse is designed to give ordinary people control of the network. All of its traffic flows directly from one cheap-to-run server to another.
#FediTips
🦋 BlueSky is designed to give corporations and wealthy people full control of the network. All of its traffic has to flow through expensive-to-run corporate relays.
The Fediverse is designed to give ordinary people control of the network. All of its traffic flows directly from one cheap-to-run server to another.#FediTips
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4 Personen haben dies geteilt
effariwhy •
JimmyB (he/him) hat dies geteilt
Fedi.Tips •
Joe Foster •
caos •
I only know this article (in german) from November: "Bluesky: How is a ‘decentralised ecosystem’ financed? Bluesky was launched as a non-profit organisation, and controversial names emerged in the latest round of financing"
https://www.derstandard.de/story/3000000245588/bluesky-wie-finanziert-sich-ein-dezentrales-oekosystem
Bluesky: Wie finanziert sich ein "dezentrales Ökosystem"?
DER STANDARDBill •
https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
Texas Technician •
I don't like that.
Never thought about it but DMs in Mastodon are not E2E either.
I'm just learning about ActivityPub. How difficult would it be to E2E DMs?
Could you provide encryption keys on both ends. And make it to where something like the users pass decrypts DMs?
Bill •
I don't know how Signal, etc. do it but it would seem publishing the public key in the user profile would solve e2e for at least DMs.
Fedi.Tips •
There is discussion of how to bring E2EE to Mastodon at https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/19565 but it hasn't been updated in some time.
support zero-knowledge encryption for toots/DMs · Issue #19565 · mastodon/mastodon
GitHubTexas Technician •
I mean the difference is obvious. One of those is meant to be public. The other one is meant to be private.
Fedi.Tips •
In October it announced that it had partially sold itself to Blockchain Capital, and the same announcement said they had appointed a blockchain/cryptocurrency expert to their board:
https://social.growyourown.services/@FediTips/113364985280012085
This is in addition to their CEO being a blockchain/cryptocurrency person:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Graber
AFAIK the board only has three people, so a majority are from blockchain.
Fedi.Tips (@FediTips@social.growyourown.services)
social.growyourown.serviceseffariwhy •
The Janx Devil •
Fedi.Tips •
Benjamin Sonntag-King •
mathieui •
Fedi.Tips •
mathieui •
ch0ccyra1n •
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IChat
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IChat_Server
built-in instant messaging software application for Mac OS X
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Chao-c' •
But there are definitely reasons why users prefer BlueSky massively. I am not sure about their MAU, because they are centralized service, there is no way to verify independently, but they may be easily 10 times our MAU.
I think the need to choose the instance is not the main problem of Mastodon and Fediverse. It is quite easy to explain to newbies. The problem is quite simple and straighforward: it is UX focused on power users.
There are too many new concepts to learn. There is no reason, why end users should have to even know about federation: it is the implementation, that matters. Backfilling history of toots and timeline of other instances instead of "opening original page". Starter packs (ie. easy sharing of user-generated lists - no CSV imports). Propper scanning for all replies (somehow). Better search feature. Better explore feature...
Also, even if Mastodon may be the best ActivityPub client so far, it is definitely not for everyone. It is quite complex chunk of code. The frontend is written in JavaScript, which is of course very standard and it is my fault I am not more familliar with it. But Ruby is pretty oldschool server side language and not among the most popular. This makes the backend quite unreadable... although probably still better, than node.js 🙂
Anyway, it is not easy for me to participate in development of neither frontend nor backend of Mastodon.
Writing completely different Fediverse application would be probably hard and I definitely don't feel one should attempt it as one man show. The team would need to start with such ActivityPub implementation, which would fix the issues like replies, and then maybe work with W3C to standardize account list sharing, so other Fedi implementations can join.
Good cellphone app would be a must. It would have to come with good instance selector. Etc.
Fedi.Tips •
What exactly is the point of joining BlueSky at all as it is going down exactly the same path as Twitter, Facebook etc? What advantage is there to users?
Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷 hat dies geteilt
binchicken •
@xChaos @janxdevil
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 •
Fedi.Tips •
I replied that if MAUs are your main concern, you can get even higher MAUs on Twitter etc.
As for going down the path, it's a matter of fact that Bluesky has adopted the same structure as Twitter, Facebook etc. Pretending it hasn't doesn't change this fact.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 •
Fedi.Tips •
Chao-c' •
I did my best, but Mastodon is simply not user friendly enough for most people. It offers some quite advanced features for power users, but at the same time, it lacks certain basics, which newbies would take for granted. The don't care about the architecture of the network, as long as they don't have to think about it.
We need to keep on trying and one day, Bluesky may seem boring to some and they will move here...
Fedi.Tips •
The trouble is this simplicity is what makes it easy for Musk etc to buy it out. And the massive amount of funding is what will eventually force it to start exploiting and manipulating its users, because the funding comes from selling itself to the funders.
There is no perfect solution, there are just a range of most or least worst options. It's up to each person to decide what is least worst for them.
Chao-c' •
I created separate list of bridged BlueSky accounts and they just seem to use it and don't think about it too much. Maybe we are too meta here...
(and also, the funding of Fedi instances is open issue... small instances are admin sponsored, but as the instances grow, they may easily reach the point, when they will be too big to be sponsored but still too small to raise funds... we will see.... I wrote python scripts, which crawl explore Mastodon compatible Fedi on various TLDs and and I am going to put the charts online soon...)
@mackuba @janxdevil
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 •
Fedi.Tips •
That's what BlueSky currently does, it's all on one instance.
But if you run on just one instance, it makes it incredibly easy for Musk etc to buy you out.
The Janx Devil •
It’s also not clear whether they would make any connections, if it were a capability they even possessed, which they don’t.
Sarah G. Carpenter, Ph.D. •
Fedi.Tips •
About the diagrams on my post, they should be explained by the text in the original post? Fediverse servers are cheap to run and talk directly to each other, BlueSky servers can only talk to expensive-to-run corporate relays.
Mastodon Migration •
Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷 hat dies geteilt
Fedi.Tips •
I've mainly put multiple relays on there so people can see even in the best case scenario, the AT protocol is still putting corporations in control of the network.
Complexity of systems •
Take a look at these links if you'd like to learn more
https://alice.bsky.sh/post/3laega7icmi2q
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/entries/Notes%20on%20Running%20a%20Full-Network%20atproto%20Relay%20(July%202024)
How to self-host all of Bluesky except the AppView (for now) — alice.bsky.sh
alice.bsky.shMatthias Rex🐈 •
Amélie Stardust •
Axel Rauschmayer •
“[…] our proposed methodology here of networking through Relays instead of server-to-server isn’t prescriptive. The protocol is actually explicitly designed to work both ways.”
https://docs.bsky.app/docs/advanced-guides/federation-architecture
QUESTION: What would that look like? Would each PDS have to crawl all relevant PDSes (=very inefficient)?
Whether or not AT Protocol can be decentralized hinges on the answer.
Federation Architecture | Bluesky
docs.bsky.appFedi.Tips •
There is also only one relay at the moment.
Axel Rauschmayer •
It *sounds* like the protocol was designed to support true federation (vs. “big world” design based on Relays). What would that look like?
If that works well then, in principle, AT *could* become a reasonable and open alternative to ActivityPub.
If not (which is my current impression but I may be wrong) then there is no way of that ever happening.
Fedi.Tips •
BlueSky are a for-profit corporation dependent on VC money, and they've given their staff shares. That gives all of them a huge financial incentive to create a network that can be bought out by billionaires etc.
It's difficult to see why they would do anything to endanger their ability to sell themselves to wealthy investors.
Axel Rauschmayer •
There is also this group of people: https://freeourfeeds.com/
It’s interesting that, per their FAQ, they want to build a second Relay. That doesn’t sound like AT will ever be truly decentralized.
It feels like they could achieve their goals with much less money if they focused on ActivityPub instead of AT.
Em •
Fedi.Tips •
hamish campbell •
https://hamishcampbell.com/public-social-media-the-choice-is-clear/
Dismal Manor Gang •
Rin/Mari Clarity •
Furthermore all Bluesky posts can be boosted by algorithmic feeds; there's no "unlisted" post setting. Forced discoverability is not good for someone who just wants a quiet social media presence.
Finally, blocks are public, which is a world of drama waiting to happen. There's even a block leaderboard https://clearsky.app
alg0w •
NowWeAreAllTom •
Juan C Nuno •
Ayo :Ayco: •
david_chisnall •
Pierre Chrzanowski •
Fedi.Tips •
Thomas Schmall •
I understand the limitations, and things are getting better. But realistically there is no way an average internet user can comfortably switch to Mastodon at this point.
Fedi.Tips •
BlueSky is currently just a for-profit centralised single-instance social network, like Twitter or Facebook.
Even if it eventually linked to other instances (which isn't currently happening), it would be through massive corporate relays that would need to exploit user data to fund themselves.
Thomas Schmall •
But the fact that Mastodon, at it's current state, is not usable for tech-noobs, is true at the same time. I directly experienced that when trying to get some to use it.
Michel Patrice •
Christiaan Moleman •
Mastodon has real advantages and should in an ideal world be the main social network, but it is unable to reach that critical mass because Fedi-enthusiasts refuse to look critically at what could be improved (a lot).
Usability is simply not where it needs to be to reach a wider audience.
Fedi.Tips •
Even if they "decentralised" with the AT protocol, it would still remain in corporate control.
If someone doesn't mind them becoming awful like this, then they might as well stay on Twitter or Facebook. What's the point of moving?
Christiaan Moleman •
It's orders of magnitude more usable than both ex-twitter and FB and it's not run by (or overrun with) literal nazis. If you want twitter without the nazis and other shit, that's Bluesky... if you don't mind jumping through myriad technical hoops and a much smaller audience, there's Mastodon.
I'm still detecting zero willingness to look critically at Fedi and its UX issues here.
Fedi.Tips •
Because of the way Bluesky is structured, Musk could buy it tomorrow. There's nothing to stop Twitter happening all over again.
"If you want to be smug"
I'm not being smug, I am being deeply worried by what centralised corporate social networks have done to the world:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence
This is caused by centralised networks run for profit. It doesn't happen at first when it's building up, but it happens eventually.
Christiaan Moleman •
The fact is that for most people Bluesky TODAY is a better alternative than Mastodon. This is not because they are stupid, this is because for a non-tech-savvy user basic usability far FAR outweighs any potential advantages of open source independence.
Erik •
MortonMattD •
Grit •
Ghab •
Fedi.Tips •
McNeely •
It seems to imply that users are the green dots for BlueSky and they communicate with servers (red dots) which are (so far) run by corporations. No complaints, that's all pretty accurate.
But when you use the same green dots for the Fediverse on the bottom, it seems to imply that individuals are directly connecting to each other which is NOT accurate. Servers are still intermediaries on the Fediverse. I don't believe this is a minor distinction.
Fedi.Tips •
Fedi.Tips •
John E. Bartley, III (D) K7AAY •
Fedi.Tips •
The BlueSky interface is paid for by selling itself to VC investors. The VCs will then be demanding lots of monetisation once they've gathered enough users. They're on the path to becoming as bad as Twitter or Facebook because of this.
John E. Bartley, III (D) K7AAY •
Fedi.Tips •
However, if we keep jumping the problem will keep repeating, and many never jump so the problem never gets solved anyway.
We have to do things differently if we want to break the cycle.
BlueSky is advertising itself as if it is breaking the cycle, the point of the post above is that they're not really breaking the cycle.
mkj •
In your diagram each circle would roughly correspond to servers which have mutual follows with another server (because of the bidirectional arrows). But to a first order approximation, any Fedi server can communicate with *any* other Fedi server.
So Fedi is even *far more* decentralized than your diagram makes it appear.
Fedi.Tips •
It is deliberately simplified to keep it easy to follow.
The Blue Wizard •
Fedi.Tips •
And yes, very keen to see what Spritely comes up with. 🤩
veritanuda •
Darren •
KeremGoArt 🏴☠️ :unverified: •
Teagan Buckley •
wraptile •
stux⚡ •
Been saying this for a while
People flee from one centralized place to another making endless accounts in the menanwhile
But ofc the Fedi is certainly too much work
Phracker •
minerva koenig •
Dr. ir. Brian R. Pauw •
Fedi.Tips •
The structure Bluesky has chosen for its tech and its business is very likely to repeat all the problems that Twitter, Facebook etc suffer from.
The things that make people leave Twitter & Facebook now are going to get repeated on Bluesky with its current structure. Then they'll have to move again.
Dr. ir. Brian R. Pauw •
I’ve read the comments, spoken to colleagues who joined this then that, and the consensus is that “mastodon is hard, difficult UI” compared to bsky.
For context, my friends are scientists with very little time.
Fedi.Tips •
It's much easier to use a single-instance network, but that makes it easy to be taken over.
It's much easier to use a network that has massive amounts of funding from VCs, but that makes it certain to enshittify and exploit its users.
Guus der Kinderen •
(It's getting rather big. On mobile, this webgl rendering typically had better performance: https://xmppnetwork.goodbytes.im/webgl.html - there's also a link to a rather nice 3d version on that site).
XMPP Network Graph
xmppnetwork.goodbytes.imAbsinthe •
Just start out on a big server on Mastodon, get the community of friends & hashtags you like, then if you want later, easily transfer your settings & follows to a specialized server.
@PamelaBarroway
Deshanishu •
https://shorturl.at/RJUEj
maple •
In situations like that, from the user's perspective the #Bluesky / AT protocol is superior, because with the centralized server and corporate relays pretty much anything posted using a given hashtag will be seen by all those who follow that hashtag.
I'm not saying we all should move to Bluesky. I'm saying that this is a problem that needs to be solved by whoever writes the software for #Mastodon and similar Fediverse instances. And if there already is a solution but few instances are using it, what is that solution and where can you find a list of instances that are already using it? I understand there will always be some blockages because instance operators don't want traffic from certain types of instances, but I'm not talking about that, I am talking about cases where a post with a hashtag doesn't reach your instance because no one using your instance is specifically following the user that made that post.
kryptec •
Fedi.Tips •
https://fedi.tips/using-relays-to-quickly-expand-a-servers-view-of-the-fediverse/
Using relays, groups, directories and scripts to quickly expand a server’s view of the Fediverse | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipsDavid WBL •
maple •
Fedi.Tips •
Also, the user themselves can implement things like following groups which totally bypass whatever their instance can see. If you follow a group, you will see the same posts no matter which instance you are on. It's the same if you follow a particular set of accounts, the act of a user following an account changes which posts are visible to the user's instance.
maple •
But will there be a group about Joplin? Probably not. And also, as I understand it, groups follow users, not hashtags. And in that case you can get inundated with posts that are not about the topic of interest. I have tried to follow groups a few times and generally speaking I've had to turn them off almost immediately because they flooded my timeline with uninteresting and irrelevant posts.
Fedi.Tips •
Groups from services like Guppe are basically just "super hashtags". If you mention the group, the post is distributed to everyone that follows the group on any server. You can make a new group just by mentioning it.
If someone spams the group with irrelevant content, they can be reported for spamming (just like they can be with hashtag spamming).
maple •
So again taking Joplin (the software) as an example, chances are there is no existing group for it, and yes I could easily create one but chances are all I'm going to get is crickets because other people who post about Joplin will be using the hashtag (with which they are familiar) and not the group identifier.
Basically what I am hearing is "we can't make hashtags work the way they are supposed to in the Fediverse, so here is this substitute that few users have heard of and even fewer will actually use", rather than "we really need to fix the fediverse software so that hashtags work as they are supposed to."
Massimiliano Musina •
#fediverse
Fedi.Tips •
"I wish a future were we always own data, regardless of the app/technology we use"
I think @timbl has been working on something like this for some time with the Solid project?
maple •
Massimiliano Musina •
I am also an "ordinary user" anyway, I am just tired of directly supporting huge corporation with my personal data. I have opened my eyes and I do believe that the rest of "ordinary users" (like us) will do the same in a point.
It will probably take time, but I really believe that the "fediverse approach" will be the future.
maple •
Fedi.Tips •
"they may not have much interest in platforms that limit their exposure."
...if exposure is all they care about, why would they leave Twitter, Facebook, Instagram etc? (Genuine question.)
maple •
"...if exposure is all they care about, why would they leave Twitter, Facebook, Instagram etc? (Genuine question.)"
Well, I can think of two reasons, one is that they don't want some big corporation (or the evil owner thereof) owning or controlling or censoring their posts, and the other is that they don't want to share a platform with Nazis/fascists/anti-science types. But if they don't fall into either of those categories, I can't think of any reason they would want to leave one of those platforms. And right now, for the most part those things would not apply to Bluesky users (yet) so the case for leaving to come to the Fediverse is even weaker for them.
Fedi.Tips •
I'm not though? No one knows me outside of these accounts.
"...one is that they don't want some big corporation (or the evil owner thereof) owning or controlling or censoring their posts, "
They already have a big corporation owning/controlling their posts. Bluesky is a for-profit corporation valued at nearly a billion dollars now.
maple •
That is simply not the case with Bluesky (yet).
Mik3y •
Fedi.Tips •
https://masto.host/pricing
Pricing | Masto.host
Masto.hostSusan Kraemer@newsie.social •
Fedi.Tips •
And once you do make connections on here, I would say the community on here is much more genuine, deep and friendly.
I've done some tips on how to discover accounts at https://fedi.tips/how-do-i-find-accounts-to-follow-on-mastodon-and-the-fediverse-how-do-i-find-my-friends/ and how to make your own account more discoverable at https://fedi.tips/how-do-i-get-more-followers-on-mastodon-and-the-fediverse/
How do I discover accounts to follow on Mastodon and the Fediverse? | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tips:verified: Ndjee :verified: •
Not anticipating the MANY corporations going fascist
Valdis Krebs •
Fedi.Tips •
If you want exact details on what Fediverse servers notice there's a list here:
https://fedi.tips/which-posts-and-accounts-can-i-see-from-my-server/
Which Mastodon and Fediverse posts and accounts can I see from my server? | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tips